00:00:00: these female figures in the paintings.

00:00:02: they are often depicted in situations that are unsettling or uncomfortable, or compromising.

00:00:11: But at the same time their body language...or their facial expression is neutral.

00:00:18: That shows um..they're in control Or they have...they're composed They're keeping their act together And I think that neutral facial or body language becomes a sign of power, resilience.

00:00:44: Today's guest is artist Aghavan Koshravi What I find often very interesting.

00:00:50: how did you get into art in the first place?

00:00:53: Were born in Iran.

00:00:55: were there any role models like where artists around where you thought, okay this is what I want to do when I'm grown up or... When did the possibility of becoming a professional artist occurred?

00:01:10: So yeah.

00:01:11: I was born in Iran and my father's an architect so it's like traditional Persian Islamic architecture motifs and architectural spaces that are present in my work, I was exposed to all those things as a child.

00:01:44: And since can remember could hold the pen or pencil brush making marks, you know.

00:01:58: But I think it's the case about so many kids.

00:02:01: but i was really dedicated and not role model.

00:02:07: what I remember?

00:02:07: for example my father had a couple at.

00:02:11: we like family friends that the couple.

00:02:14: they were both painters and whenever we visited then they have home working situation best place to be, too.

00:02:26: To just go and sneak in into their studio and see the painting materials there on finished paintings.

00:02:32: so it was one of the early examples that I was exposed to how being professional like doing painting as a profession looked like.

00:02:45: but it was later in life that i decided to be a painter professionally at young age you... About my future career.

00:02:56: I wanted to make a more in that like.

00:02:59: at that young age, I thought That's a more logical decision too To study something that can secure and guarantee you if the job Yeah.

00:03:12: So then you studied what.

00:03:14: so for undergrad?

00:03:16: I studied graphic design mm-hmm In like in high school.

00:03:21: in Iran we have to decide our majors, so for example math biology art liberal arts.

00:03:29: at that time I picked Math.

00:03:31: I thought like Art is something that i can always do on the side.

00:03:35: it's not although my family gave me enough freedom to pursue anything you want.

00:03:42: So At That Time I Thought I will be an engineer or Something and Do Painting On The Side.

00:03:47: but then It felt like it's too far into what I liked and my set of skills.

00:03:55: And still as i said, I wanted to do something more practical.

00:03:58: so I thought graphic design in college would be something in between.

00:04:03: So I studied Graphic Design In College and was a graphic designer for almost the decade.

00:04:11: Also you, so your undergrad was in Iran.

00:04:14: Okay but I think what's interesting is when you said thought about an engineer because i find very interesting in your work.

00:04:22: they're very complex engineered right?

00:04:25: They are painting but often they have like elements and they've very resisted.

00:04:35: It works out.

00:04:36: You know, it's like a conservat... ...conservational-wise pretty well thought through and it is very obvious that you put a lot of thought and time into the engineering of work itself.

00:04:54: Now I look back at those high school years studying in math major and I loved geometry, so maybe yes that has now it helps to build these structures.

00:05:13: So then you were active as a graphic designer?

00:05:18: Yes!

00:05:20: In an ad agency... It was like very commercial design.

00:05:27: And when did you leave Iran?

00:05:30: It was back in twenty fifteen.

00:05:34: I decided to go the United States, like continue my education and get my MFA ambition or dream of being a painter because all those years I was doing some illustrations for children's book and back in Iran, I got the master's in illustration.

00:06:06: And painting for me is always like high shelf.

00:06:08: that thought i couldn't reach more freedom of expression, because in both graphic design and illustration there's always a client that you have to like accommodate too.

00:06:25: or there is a specific message at the end of day that you need to communicate with, but in painting.

00:06:32: You have freedom to express whatever you want as little and much more than what you wanted.

00:06:38: so when I decided to go to US for study... ...I thought they should give it a try because we were born only once.

00:06:48: So for one year I did post-bachelors program at Brandeis University just to test the waters and see if I can make it as a painter.

00:07:02: And the feedback that received there, and body of work that i made during one year period really encouraged me to pursue painting further.

00:07:15: It was my first time that painting is my main focus main hours of, like the daily job.

00:07:27: So I applied for grad schools and eventually get into painting MFA program at Rhode Island School of Design And since then i have tried to evolve what I do... ...and am really glad that made decision to switch towards painting.

00:07:48: And do you think that it's possible to learn painting in a master's program?

00:07:53: Or is like, I mean your very skilled painter.

00:07:58: But then comes from practicing or the reconformation of other professionals who feel more confident?

00:08:11: Especially on Master's Day... They assume that you already know how to paint and they more focus on what your painting, the concepts.

00:08:23: And for me it felt like if you're a tree that have lot of leaves there are lots of leaves need to be shed so that the more lively leaves have room to grow.

00:08:40: I think grad school helps you figure out.

00:08:45: You know what I mean?

00:08:46: I hope it was a clear analogy.

00:08:48: But like crit classes helped you to get better conceptually.

00:08:53: Yes,

00:08:54: yes To try.

00:08:55: and also for me It helps me find my own creative process My studio process

00:09:01: And develop the language.

00:09:03: Yes!

00:09:04: To find your voice

00:09:05: Which

00:09:06: is something that... Art school can be a double-edged sword.

00:09:12: They can, if it's not good program they have a mold and try to fit the students in that mold or better programs...they tried give you space and

00:09:27: only feedback.

00:09:29: It is interesting!

00:09:30: In Germany we had this system where there was a professor who was one of the masters.

00:09:38: You can also become the master student, which is a good way because it's very productive.

00:09:50: When you look at Thomas Beiler he was an important teacher but some teachers tend to reproduce mini-pleasers like the Master and he has lots of... reproductions of his own style, replicas and that's not going anywhere.

00:10:10: Let us talk about miniature painting which is an important influence.

00:10:14: so I would say it probably what our icon are.

00:10:25: maybe you can explore a bit the art historical background for miniature paintings.

00:10:31: So miniature paintings, there is a long tradition and history of Indo-Persian miniature painting in the region.

00:10:40: And it was usually like they were these courts—like the kings that had their workshops —and patrons gathered all artists to collaborate.

00:10:54: They are mostly made to illustrate stories or create books and leaflets.

00:11:02: And it was interesting, from this aspect that most of the time a collaborative process.

00:11:10: so someone would make for example the illumination in the page like those decorative patterns.

00:11:19: some other person will do just line work another person come to do calligraphy.

00:11:30: There are often these historic paintings, they're attributed to one person.

00:11:35: One artist but it's like his workshop sort of...

00:11:40: Very similar to our Western Renaissance, right?

00:11:46: So that why there very small and always look like pages in a book.

00:11:54: A narrative

00:11:55: Yes, a narrative.

00:11:56: and what I am always fascinated by is how they have decided to incorporate the picture plane.

00:12:05: The framing of paper as like a framing device.

00:12:09: so there's always the rectangle of the paper painted inside that rectangle, and in some areas.

00:12:19: they decided that some elements of the painting grows out of that second rectangle that is painted within that page.

00:12:26: For example there's part of a tree that is snicking out off the border... ...that is the main border for the paintings or parts of architecture or some figures And I always was really fascinated with this like how it creates this dynamic composition, and one of the ways that I tried to translate these quality into my own work was creating the shaped panels.

00:12:58: The three-dimensionality?

00:13:00: And the shaped panel because in that way... ...the wall acts as black paper.

00:13:07: if we compare it with miniature paintings then the shape panel is a second border.

00:13:13: I decide to paint within that wall surface.

00:13:19: And yes, then that introduced the three-dimensionality of work because at this moment it's not a rectangle anymore and feels more like an object rather than two-dimensional surfaces.

00:13:31: Interesting!

00:13:32: So your change in conventional painting format first is the shape canvas growing out of the canvas and now even a freestanding painting, which is in the show right now.

00:13:48: Is from this illusion power from miniature painting?

00:13:53: Yes but I also got inspired by some western artists that have like grown out of their rectangle like Tom Wesselmann and artists like that.

00:14:06: so... Oh interesting!

00:14:07: i would have expected you to refer to Alta paintings You know, because I think the first time the painting's shapes changed was to fit into a church altar.

00:14:19: Yeah that too!

00:14:20: Because now actually i am developing series of smaller pieces based on altarpieces like their structure and... That is also another thing.

00:14:35: In churches, as you mentioned the altar they decided to make these shaped paintings that fit within the architecture.

00:14:42: Yeah

00:14:42: yeah

00:14:43: absolutely right?

00:14:44: Yes yes

00:14:45: but it's interesting.

00:14:49: so maybe my ignorance... You have the same sort of heroes we do with our Renaissance painters even though there had huge workshops in miniature painting too.

00:15:05: So there's like Leonardo and so on.

00:15:08: Yeah, yeah Like in miniature painting for example one of the masters is Behzad For example And then he had a workshop and many people worked under him.

00:15:22: Like the concept of apprenticeship in Renaissance era, it helped not just to create a work but also educate and not educate.

00:15:30: But create future artists.

00:15:33: And where are we there time-wise?

00:15:39: It was like four centuries ago... I think about the fifteenth century or something.

00:15:44: Okay

00:15:45: so you would find that in the Arabic Wing in the Metropolitan Museum.

00:15:52: The

00:15:53: Islamic ring?

00:15:54: The other interesting thing is that these artists, sometimes they travel... That's why for example you find Indian artists from this same era and there are so many similarities because sometimes things change politically.

00:16:15: For example a king stopped to to patron artists and they decided... And another king in India, for example had a workshop.

00:16:28: So from Turkey back then, Persia, they decided to migrate to India to work under...

00:16:37: I mean identical with our art history right?

00:16:39: You have the King or like a first and invited them poets philosophers and painters to come, what's it called?

00:16:55: Court or under their power.

00:16:59: And they supported them.

00:17:01: interesting but do you quote when use the style of miniature painting in details elements and they are only like one element of your paintings.

00:17:17: One detail, do you quote or is it completely new creation?

00:17:24: In a little bit both depending from... It's different than painting to another.

00:17:31: sometimes I just get the visual structure then change that color palette, textures.

00:17:43: Sometimes things are more like a quotation rather than what I described.

00:17:50: that it's just this structure, so it depends.

00:17:54: But always the way I paint technically is different from that tradition of Persian miniature painting which has flat surfaces and then outlined shapes painted surfaces.

00:18:13: And you mentioned before that your work was multi-panel works, like when we look at this exhibition right now the shape of...

00:18:24: Absence?

00:18:24: The shape of absence is the title which is interesting because absence probably has no shape so it's a palindrome or what they called if its.

00:18:37: however If You arrive towards the exhibition space.

00:18:42: There's a multi-panel element, why multi panel?

00:18:50: So it started as I said with the shaped panels and then more three dimensional at some point.

00:18:58: It was actually during Covid.

00:19:01: back then i had studio in New York but we didn't have access to our studios because everything was shut down.

00:19:10: so I had to compromise and work like at a corner in our living room on the small space that they have with limited material, wood panels.

00:19:25: And stuff the scale of my work.

00:19:33: So in a way, I wanted to even make larger pieces a painting in several sections.

00:19:52: And then at the gallery, they can be assembled together and create one large work.

00:19:58: but it was just this starting point for this idea that I thought it feels really natural to how... as an immigrant you feel like you belong all these several places at once But don't fully belong to one.

00:20:14: Like part of me still Belongs back home in Iran and I feel I'm still.

00:20:21: you know, I'm connected now.

00:20:23: Yeah Now I've been living in the States for all more than a decade And I have grown there like my practice.

00:20:31: My life has changed and i feel belong to To do my new new home as well.

00:20:36: but at end of the day I feel Like I'm living In that third space and these multi panel works sort Of felt Felt honest to that experience.

00:20:46: But as you mentioned, You also influenced by like Tom Wessemann Robert Rauschenberg Like the American post-war pop arts development.

00:20:57: Yeah So all these different influences and

00:21:01: they

00:21:01: all informed what I do now.

00:21:05: And how about Frida Kahlo for example?

00:21:08: Because of the depicting there's like a certain, is it the same woman or women as representation for all women?

00:21:22: There are some... I have heard or received comments about Frida Kahlo and my work.

00:21:34: Part of that because women as subject matter and also the surrealism elements that I have in my work, but less so than she was depicting herself.

00:21:49: So they were like self-portraits mostly In my work...I don't consider any of them as female protagonists

00:22:01: But

00:22:01: i am aware some characteristics are similar to me or people from my own generation, women for my own generations.

00:22:13: But more like alter egos.

00:22:16: so that not exactly me but there are some something of me in each figure.

00:22:22: maybe

00:22:23: yeah I think this Frida Kahlo thing comes up because they're not so many sort-of clearly depicted woman in art history which are painted by women.

00:22:38: You know,

00:22:38: you have a lot of women but then they're painted by men and like the representation of yourself somehow it's surprisingly short when you look into the history of painting.

00:22:54: Yes absolutely because Muses, and we're painted in the canon of art history.

00:23:03: You see them in different artworks through their male gaze mostly rather than examples like Frida Kahlo.

00:23:15: Another example which comes to my mind is Eveline Axel.

00:23:20: She's a Belgian pop artist who died unfortunately way too young.

00:23:24: We have sold her work at MoMA And she worked also with materials growing out of the canvas, like Plexiglas and so on.

00:23:35: Like Tom Vesemann-like but unfortunately she died way too early.

00:23:40: But it's a very interesting voice in that matter.

00:23:43: Anyway So... Going back to your women In your paintings They have an interesting sort of, how to say they are in.

00:24:08: their attitude is very absent or not... They're somehow captured themselves.

00:24:22: They're introverted and you can't really tell.

00:24:26: there's like one picture coming into my mind as a woman underwater.

00:24:31: But you can't really say if she drowned or is sleeping, contemplating and... Why do we give them?

00:24:42: Because obviously your work is very controlled.

00:24:45: it's extremely detailed and very engineered so nothing.

00:24:50: what we see is unconsciously without purpose I would say.

00:24:56: So why did you decide to keep them sort of, I don't know it's not distant.

00:25:02: i have a hard time finding the word but maybe you understand what i mean

00:25:06: exactly.

00:25:06: yeah and it's very like acute observation.

00:25:12: about the paintings.

00:25:13: You're right because...I have these female figures in the paintings that they are often depicted situations that are unsettling or uncomfortable, or compromising like what you the example.

00:25:30: You said that the woman is underwater but at the same time their body language they The order facial expression if it's seen and not covered by other elements in the painting Is neutral which shows?

00:25:46: Or is That shows?

00:25:49: um there in control or they are composed, keeping their act together.

00:25:56: And I think that neutral facial and body language becomes a sign of power because it is not reacting to the harsh environment reality that they are surrounded with.

00:26:13: So, they don't show fear or... Exactly

00:26:15: and it brings us to the title The Shape of Absence.

00:26:18: The absence of showing any physical reaction to that you know?

00:26:25: It becomes...

00:26:27: Taking control back!

00:26:28: ...it becomes a sign of power And in a way I can relate like i connected what's in everyday life for example, an Iranian woman.

00:26:45: Like how I look at videos and images coming from inside Iran that women are refusing to comply with the compulsory hijab.

00:26:56: so it is a very... every day almost mundane acts, which if you don't know the context someone is going outside walking on this street not wearing some covering their hair.

00:27:10: But that's ordinary action becomes like a powerful

00:27:16: political guest job

00:27:18: and

00:27:18: life-risking element right?

00:27:19: Yes exactly so.

00:27:21: in my mind I'm connecting all these things together.

00:27:24: So it become an act of civil disobedience.

00:27:27: Yeah but even before Oh, no.

00:27:30: Maybe I mean the movement only became present here.

00:27:34: life What's it called live woman freedom?

00:27:36: Yes But before

00:27:38: our notice we noticed that there was a same situation.

00:27:41: Yeah

00:27:42: That was like the peak of those resistance by Iranian women but It has been for decades today

00:27:57: which is interesting at the same time that education Always very high and equal right?

00:28:03: Yes.

00:28:04: Yeah, yes That's one of the paradoxes.

00:28:06: yeah

00:28:07: sometimes more like More women go each year make a Higher education

00:28:15: exactly

00:28:16: or we men get accept.

00:28:17: Yes

00:28:18: exact same here.

00:28:19: Yeah.

00:28:23: And when we look into the shape-of-absence show right now your work That's the second show with a gallery, right?

00:28:33: Yeah.

00:28:34: And... The first show upstairs in the nave was already quite three-dimensional and you had like details, strings coming out of work.

00:28:42: but now there is even freestanding sculpture or painting which I would also take this example to understand how you build it because its all canvas It's Feather, right?

00:29:01: What is the title of the work.

00:29:04: The White Feather?

00:29:04: Maybe you can describe it for our listeners.

00:29:09: Actually I developed a series after the Woman Life Freedom movement and if this series was going to be included in my solo exhibition at the Rose Art Museum at Brandeis In the US And because That museum context, I wanted to be more ambitious than before.

00:29:37: And I decided...I always had three-dimensional elements in my work but I want it create this series of works that are freestanding so people can move around and examine the piece from all different angles.

00:29:51: Whitefeather was one of the works for that series mainly made out of wood panels.

00:30:00: In some areas I have mounted canvas over wood panels and then painted acrylic on canvas, Some is acrylic directly on wood and plexiglass And acrylic painted directly on plexi glass.

00:30:16: because i wanted the... Because of the freestanding quality of it, I wanted that part of the painting can be seen from both sides.

00:30:26: And then also this shadow.

00:30:31: those shapes when... From certain angle when light is shed on the piece creates a shadow on the base.

00:30:52: I'm trying to find a good word for it, are not permanent.

00:30:59: So depending how the light is changed...

00:31:01: How you look at or how the lighting

00:31:03: changes?

00:31:04: Exactly!

00:31:05: From an angle and how the lights

00:31:07: change.

00:31:07: Yeah exactly that's what

00:31:08: i mean.

00:31:10: More complex than with painting on wall.

00:31:12: Yes there was more to explore in person

00:31:16: And you mentioned acrylic paint.

00:31:17: You always work with acrylic paint?

00:31:20: No oil.

00:31:21: Yeah, I never had the patience for... Although my work looks like i am a very patient person

00:31:26: because

00:31:27: of all the details but i didn't have the patience to work with oil.

00:31:31: Just takes too long to dry?

00:31:33: Yes!

00:31:34: And so what does it show?

00:31:36: this sculpture The feather

00:31:38: Like the subject matter.

00:31:39: yeah.

00:31:40: So most of the works in these In my practice It's Based on the concept of contradiction or duality.

00:31:55: So in this work, The Duality exists On two sides Of the work.

00:31:59: from one side and it's always like opposing forces that you can summarize It In Dark And Light.

00:32:09: They are trying to cause darkness and lightness.

00:32:12: they're Trying To coexist within One entity.

00:32:15: so From one Side You See This Like tree with these blossoms and the bird that is painted on one side of the piece.

00:32:30: And then, on the other side you see the birds that are flying.

00:32:35: so there two forces.

00:32:38: or because what I forgot to mention is that although there is like this Like flourishing tree, but if you look closer at the bottom of the tree on the base There's a bird which seems to be dead and then other side.

00:32:54: The birds are flying in On a background of clouds And so there is dislike Duality presence i'm trying to picture to remember other aspects that emphasize on this fact.

00:33:10: And, on one side you see...

00:33:12: Interesting I think you can't see both at the same time?

00:33:14: Yes, exactly!

00:33:15: It's

00:33:15: an important element.

00:33:17: Except for a very small portion of the piece which is on plexi in certain angles from both sides.

00:33:28: And also there is this emphasize on the shape of hair, because there's like these long wavy hair off that figure which is cropped sort-of... The face with a portrait which is cropped.

00:33:40: but then continuation That wavy shape is on the almost abstract shape that's extending beyond a rectangle of that cropped portrait with like purple, pink colors.

00:33:58: So your eye connects those shapes... Those wavy shapes with the outline the painting.

00:34:16: And how do you approach such a work?

00:34:18: Do you start with drawings, or use your skills software through this simulation and come closer to that result?

00:34:33: I usually look at different images because over years I'm more creative and my imagination is more activated when i am looking at something.

00:34:50: And, in a more reactionary mode rather than looking at the blank canvas.

00:34:55: so first i have like A mood or feeling that i want to communicate In My Work Or Maybe More Specific Memory Or Something More Concrete those images, I create different sketches.

00:35:16: Sometimes i use digital tools to try out different compositions because it's fast and At some point during that sketching process, I feel like i'm excited about this piece and it feels more resolved in my own mind.

00:35:44: It generates enough excitement for me to move on... ...to the next phase of building this structure.

00:35:51: At that point I need a very clear idea, especially with shape panels because it correlates quite

00:36:01: complex where they will arrive and connect.

00:36:11: The visual structure is up to like eighty percent.

00:36:14: I know what the final work would look like.

00:36:19: and then i start thinking about does this need any three-d element?

00:36:25: Does this sketch needs to exist on several panels, because I don't want to just add three elements or make paintings multi-panel for the sake of it.

00:36:41: If that subject matter or sketch visually really demands that format then I move on and made the three d panels up until this point.

00:36:57: Like the engineering part of it, I don't give much thought.

00:37:02: And then when building panels... ...I decide how each three-D element relates to other parts and how they are connected for example How deep one panel needs if i need a wood cutout To connect all these elements.

00:37:26: And you also look at fashion photography.

00:37:28: Yes, yes yeah we talked about how the figures have like or faces that neutral

00:37:36: quality.

00:37:41: calmness

00:37:42: which

00:37:42: is neutral and I found that quality in fashion photography, because they need to be a blank canvas for the clothes.

00:37:52: And distant?

00:37:53: Yes yes!

00:37:54: To...to be shown.

00:37:58: first.

00:37:58: i didn't realize thats why im drawn on these figures but later reverse engineered my mind then realized thats reason Im drawn onto this But I'm inspired by the body language and facial expression.

00:38:17: Because those are more ideal, in terms of beauty standards they're more like ideal And i try to alter these qualities the two beautiful... For

00:38:33: you it was a facial expression with interest, I guess.

00:38:36: Artificial intelligence?

00:38:37: No no!

00:38:37: The Facial Expression

00:38:38: Yes absolutely yes more than the facial features

00:38:45: But its interesting.

00:38:45: what your mention of the sculpture because this Ying and Yang or also they were other work With the two hands often.

00:38:54: how maybe?

00:38:56: What is that?

00:38:56: with their hands?

00:38:58: The hand appears quite often.

00:39:00: Yes, you're right I remember in one of the creeds... ...I am back at school now that you mentioned hands.

00:39:07: One feedbacks i received was usually students are afraid or trying not to deal with painting hands but they had a painting that it's like a face that is all covered by

00:39:19: hands.

00:39:21: So because I think hands The shape of each one person's hand on its own, tells a lot about their personality and also how like the hand gesture.

00:39:36: And they pose can convey different feelings which for me it is very interesting in my work.

00:39:49: often faces are obscured or cropped or the facial expression is neutral, so there's a lot to be told by hands.

00:40:01: And one of things that I really love about Renaissance paintings was exactly this because it has a lot.

00:40:07: hand gesture and those like manneristic qualities in body language... In my mind i'm connecting everything together also with Persian miniature painting other ways.

00:40:22: All the expression is left for the body to set.

00:40:25: The faces are almost the same, like not so much... Not too many range of facial expressions but the bodies show how that figure is feeling or expressing themselves

00:40:37: And there's certain codes.

00:40:40: You know what we have here?

00:40:41: That the pomgranate means this and the child on the left Is read differently than you know What I mean Like the encoding Renaissance painting.

00:40:54: Yeah, I think to some extent.

00:40:56: I think so.

00:40:58: But mentioning the pomegranate that also appears in your work?

00:41:01: Yes!

00:41:02: And what is it with a pomegrinate?

00:41:03: That's

00:41:03: a recurring motif and my work... In one of the pieces It's like the main events The absence.

00:41:14: In Persian literature and Persian culture Pomegranates symbolizes specific things and I think it can be in other cultures too maybe.

00:41:28: Like prosperity, livelihoods... And my work this notion of duality and contrasting elements there are all these negative connotations.

00:41:41: for example There is like black liquid dripping from one work or a figure that has like a rope around her wrist or something, things like that.

00:41:55: And then when I think about what is on the other side of this spectrum different symbols Like the pomegranate is one more cypress tree which also have those connotations Or a blossoming tree.

00:42:12: So yeah it's within that visual

00:42:17: And it's with this exhibition or all your work that we have these contradictory balance elements of plus and minus, black-and-white.

00:42:31: It is a red line.

00:42:32: through all the practice

00:42:33: I think so!

00:42:34: The moment i figure out what to say in my painting unconsciously not decided later on I am always trying to find a balance between these contrasting elements, whether it's like in terms of time.

00:42:55: Like something historic besides something contemporary or its geography?

00:43:00: is something from Western culture Eastern culture Or even the material?

00:43:07: The colors there are more flat monochromatic black surfaces besides be a bit more almost fluorescent colorful or The material are used flat three-dimensional and so on.

00:43:24: And when I try to figure out why I'm drawn to this dislike This mode of expression of dualities if in, I realized that since early age.

00:43:41: I was born and grown up in this tension because i was born soon after the nineteen seventy nine islamic revolution which overthrown a western friendly monarchy.

00:43:54: yeah

00:43:55: so I was born during that time, the Islamic Republic was trying to solidify its power.

00:44:04: So there is this tension between more modern ideas

00:44:07: and... Very cosmopolitan society right?

00:44:10: Yes!

00:44:10: It's on a way of being very liberal.

00:44:14: And those who took power were trying put everyone under their own control have a grip on power.

00:44:24: so this tension

00:44:26: yeah very extreme pendulum

00:44:28: yes

00:44:28: from one side to the other.

00:44:29: exactly it was sort of etched in our DNA.

00:44:34: and on top of that because of that then you have two separate living situation like private public.

00:44:43: So, that also adds to that feeling of duality at home.

00:44:50: if Your way of thinking is not similar to the government.

00:44:57: You have your free space... ...to think and act freely, but in public you're trying

00:45:04: too.".

00:45:05: Which I also think applies to Western societies as well!

00:45:08: We also see that pendulum may be not so extreme.

00:45:10: In other ways, yes in elections you see that

00:45:14: going from one... One extreme to the other and back.

00:45:19: And why can't we all agree on a more tolerant less extremist?

00:45:26: A center common ground?

00:45:28: I

00:45:28: think it's about human nature.

00:45:33: I wonder is, there are a lot of details now.

00:45:37: There's an element in the mirror and our glass... So work got more complex?

00:45:45: Where does it go now?

00:45:46: What do you're working on right now?

00:45:48: Right now as briefly mentioned earlier i'm really drawn into this format of altarpieces like small personal altarpiece because they already They have already so many qualities that I've been exploring in my work, for example the multi-panel.

00:46:14: Like the triptych...

00:46:16: It's like an altar almost?

00:46:18: Yes and also they are hinged panels.

00:46:21: So there is this three dimensional quality And it also suggests object hood movement because of hinges.

00:46:31: But i only keep the format And there is nothing religious about the painting.

00:46:40: Just that small, personal format makes the painting to be more intimate so it can convey something more personal than what I've told in my works so far.

00:46:54: So you want even interaction?

00:46:58: Yes Like

00:46:58: unfolding and closing.

00:47:01: Some of them are, some of them they suggest movement but I actually... They're fixed because of something.

00:47:08: But

00:47:08: only this suggestion

00:47:10: includes

00:47:10: somehow the viewer?

00:47:11: Exactly!

00:47:12: In sum i'm thinking about when it's closed what It says then its open What it reveals

00:47:18: and things

00:47:18: like that which is for me a very Exciting direction And it feels Like it's not ending.

00:47:25: Yeah

00:47:25: Come up with ideas one after another.

00:47:28: Its Very exciting

00:47:29: Interesting Or maybe also.

00:47:31: last question, how long do you work on such a project or on the work?

00:47:40: And I guess you can't really change much once you start at the process.

00:47:47: Yeah yeah...I cannot add but I cannot remove something dramatically change the whole shape.

00:47:59: And because you asked about how long it takes to process?

00:48:06: Yes, so I guess that we see a result but there is a very long process of sorts which filter and then... I guess the image is created in your head long before

00:48:26: you

00:48:26: start even to shape the canvas.

00:48:28: Absolutely,

00:48:29: sometimes that phase takes the most part than... Execution?

00:48:36: Yes exactly because as you said there i cannot really change a lot of things.

00:48:44: and if that part is not concrete enough in my mind an exciting enough then during like execution and painting process, I might lose interest too.

00:48:58: And then i think if I lose interest in making the artwork

00:49:02: yeah

00:49:03: than there is less chance that the viewer

00:49:06: will be drawn-in.

00:49:07: Yeah so thats for me it's most important part of making each art work...I want everything to be distilled

00:49:22: But but so we can assume you will go.

00:49:26: Yeah, that's like a combination of going into the space.

00:49:28: But being still attached to the wall Right with these other elements?

00:49:34: Yes

00:49:34: Did you explore also other cultures?

00:49:38: how they Do we see sort of altar-like Elements in other cultures

00:49:48: Like the alter piece?

00:49:50: Yeah, I don't know.

00:49:52: To my mind comes Namjoon Pikes Buddha in a TV somehow but it's more like a figurative representation of sculpture.

00:50:02: But

00:50:04: i just wonder if you looked into other not necessarily religion because I think the altar element is really much coming from shape of architecture.

00:50:13: Yes, absolutely

00:50:14: yes.

00:50:15: And they're not like in the Persian tradition of painting and object-making.

00:50:29: there is a similar format which was mostly for the Qajar era but they were mirror cabinets

00:50:36: Mm-hmm interesting

00:50:37: but

00:50:39: okay, so

00:50:40: it was mostly like a very beautiful mirror frame which you could close it and open.

00:50:45: yeah

00:50:46: So at first I was drawn to those and then

00:50:49: what they were freestanding in the room.

00:50:51: Like

00:50:51: no

00:50:52: wall.

00:50:53: Okay

00:50:53: Yeah, so Sometimes i look at dose also as well And its always very exciting to see how different cultures overlap Sometimes even not a varying that they are drawn to similar things.

00:51:09: They were making similar things different cultures together.

00:51:13: sometimes there was this exchange of cultures alongside trade

00:51:19: or travel.

00:51:21: and last question What's the difference when you say Persian?

00:51:26: And Iran like what is Iranian?

00:51:32: does it Express sympathy to the Munas or what's a difference between?

00:51:38: no

00:51:38: because the country was actually changed The name from Persia to Iran in the monarchy that Previous, too.

00:51:47: The two Islamic Revolution.

00:51:49: yeah

00:51:49: so Persia was from.

00:51:52: I'm not good In history but I think more over.

00:51:56: it is A century ago maybe or less.

00:51:59: they change their the country named like how recently Turkey asked

00:52:03: to change,

00:52:05: become Turkey in other.

00:52:07: So it was... But I think like the Persian is more about culture and also the name of language.

00:52:15: And Iran is the country?

00:52:18: They renamed Iran when the Shah was in power

00:52:23: not his father.

00:52:25: His father, okay I see.

00:52:27: so Persia is more historic.

00:52:29: it was like the empire which was geographically covered more area and some in some of the areas that are now different countries.

00:52:39: yeah like Persian can still be the language culture like in Tajikistan or in Afghanistan because back then.

00:52:48: Thank you very

00:52:51: much for listening.

00:52:51: If you liked the episode, then Leave a like for five stars

00:53:02: there, as you say.

00:53:04: And if you have any ideas about topics, feel

00:53:10: free to let us know in the comments below what we're going to talk about and who we should invite.

00:53:28: I'm looking forward to feedback on them or also at infoatkönigalerie.com.

00:53:37: What with art?

00:53:39: A podcast from and with Johann König.